Press This: The Power of Community

Welcome to Press This, a podcast that delivers valuable insights and actionable tips for navigating the ever-evolving world of WordPress. 

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Brian Gardner: Hey everybody, welcome to the Press This podcast. Today, we have a great show about the power of community, but before we get started, I need to introduce myself. My name is Brian Gardner, and I am the new host of the Press This podcast. I have been building with WordPress since 2006, so I am familiar with WordPress in the community.

I founded StudioPress and co-created the Genesis Framework. In the fall of 2021, I officially joined WP Engine, and I’m currently on the marketing team as a WordPress advocate. My position is an excellent fit as it allows me to do things I love: design WordPress and community, which brings us back to today’s show. The topic we will cover is the power of community, specifically the WordPress community.

And I am joined by my colleague, Sam Brockway, who is now a Lifecycle Marketing Manager. We’ll give her a minute to talk about that. But for two years previously, she was the Community Manager for us on our Developer Relations team. Sam, welcome to the show.

Sam Brockway: Hello. I’m so excited to be here, and I have to give a caveat right off the bat or just a disclaimer. And that is, you might hear chickens in the background and a baby making noise because I’m hanging out, recording this podcast, working, and enjoying my homesteading life with all my children around. I’m keeping it real over here.

That’s the energy I’ve always come to work with, especially as a community manager. I am bringing the human side to the WordPress space in my new role.

Brian Gardner: I love it. I am a huge fan of authenticity and love what Ruthie Lindsey, a Nashville-based designer, says. She says all of us are looking for authenticity, and the things we think will repel people usually do the opposite. And so I live by that. I love that. I use that quote as often as I can. And so what we’re going to do here is we will be authentic, especially in light of community. We talk about code. It’s easier not to be genuine, but community and people are where it’s at.

We’re going to get into Sam’s story to understand her background in the community. So, let’s start there. I remember doing outreach to the community on behalf of WP Engine. I did a Twitter thing saying, Hey, does anybody want to do a one-on-one and talk about WordPress? You signed up for this. And so we had a one-on-one call, and through our conversation,

I realized it was great to talk to you as a member of the WordPress community. But I also knew in the back of my mind that we were looking to build our team, specifically for a community manager, in our interaction. And one more after that, I was like, Sam will be perfect for this role. The question is, is she interested? What about our conversation and the potential position here at WP Engine that piqued your interest?

Sam Brockway: I was running my own WordPress freelancing business. I had one employee, a mentorship, mentoring others to build their own web design and development freelancing businesses. And so I had been doing that for almost five years. I found great success in it. And I was entirely embodying the business owner and, you know, freelancer mindset when we met Brian on Twitter, which is so funny.

I had a Twitter account for years but have yet to use it. Then, I should explore this platform. And then you and I quickly met. So, it all happened so fast for a platform that I needed to familiarize myself with. But anyway, when we had our initial conversations and were talking about things, you mentioned, you know, the community manager position and just everything that WP Engine was doing with developer relations.

I was in a place in my personal life and in the business where I was, it was a tough time and decision because I was, like I said, experiencing success with my business, but I was a little bit burnt out, to be honest with the client work and with the, sometimes like the lack of boundaries or just that feeling of like I always have to be on and always available. At the time, I was a single mom with a daughter, and now I’ve got a husband and family and everything, which we can get into at another point. But at that time, it was the idea of going back into corporate. It was scary, but it was also like, this could be some stability and some opportunity that aligns with work that I’ve already been doing, which was, again, that community stuff with the mentorship and with.

For a long time, I had this group called Tech with Intention for people who were building with WordPress and just needed tech help. So it felt very kismet and perfectly timed. And it was, it indeed was. Closing down the business was a huge relief but also an identity shift because, for so many years, I had thought of myself as a business owner and a freelancer, and I could make my own schedule and just all of those perks of running your own business, which I still totally believe in. That’s the community that I serve. Those are the customers I speak to and work for.

But it was correct and pleasant for me to move into something different that was not freelancing. So that was where that whole conversation went. And like I said, it was perfectly timed. You just suddenly appeared on this platform I never used. The conversation was natural, and everything followed from there. 2022 was when my life came together, to be honest with you. So that was awesome.

Brian Gardner: I’m glad to have played a role in that story and continue to play a role because we’re still colleagues here, and I hope we are for many years. I am a huge fan of the movie Hope Floats, and there’s a quote in there; I can’t remember who said it back in the day, but life is what happens when you’re busy making other plans, right? And so the same thing happened to me. I was coming out of the sale of StudioPress, wandering the proverbial wilderness, and wanting to build products.

And I reached out to Heather Brunner, our CEO, and just asked about, hey, you know, some things. And so she approached me similarly, like unexpectedly, it was not in my plan to work for another company again cause it had been like 15 years since I had an employer. And so I was also at the right place, serendipitously, where I was like, you know, I need a season of getting paid to do work. And as I said at the show’s beginning, I love WordPress, design, and community. I love people, and I know you love people. So we share that, which is why we work so well together and are talking about the community here. It’s one thing I didn’t intend to discuss but want to mention. You mentioned a phrase: the community you serve. And I want to dig into that a little bit more because that’s actually,

One of the endearing things about you is that you look at your role with the community in a servant way. And it’s easy, though, when you don’t have to build your business, right? We get paid to do this now. So I have to acknowledge that. But talk to me more about the whole idea of serving people in a community. You know, just serving people is just a mindset of low expectations. Talk to me more about your experience with the community of people you served before coming on here, and then we can dive into the community we currently serve.

Sam Brockway: Yeah, it’s interesting that you called that out. My husband often says that service to others is one of the most valuable, enriching parts of life. Even when I ran my own business, I was more connected to the final revenue and all of that, having a community, serving my clients, serving the community, and just being there to guide and give back. Being generous has always been something that I valued. Even in my personal life, I teach my kids about generosity and giving to others. Giving to somebody is much more valuable and life-giving than taking. So, I’ve always brought that same energy into whatever community I work with. In this case, I built my first WordPress blog for the WordPress community in 2014.

So, over the last 11 years of building things with WordPress, I’ve amassed so much knowledge that giving that information back to other people, sharing information, and curating it for them based on what they need in their experiences has always been something that I’ve enjoyed doing. And so doing it inside that role as a community manager was incredibly life-giving, to be honest. And it doesn’t matter what you’re doing in your role, like if you, whatever your career is, right? Or, if you are a business owner and think of your work as a service, it will feel purposeful and meaningful. And that’s the way that I live my life.

Brian Gardner: Yeah, I love the idea, and this is where we could unpack for quite some time. Just talking about how the WordPress community, when we say give back, we’re not even talking about giving back to WordPress, the actual project and committing code and all of that stuff. But it makes me think back to my early days of starting studio press and selling themes. Some of my best friends back then, and the people I would consider confidants, were competitors of mine because they were also running theme shops back in the day. Corey Miller is a great example. He started iThemes, and we would talk daily about what was working and what wasn’t, like on Gmail chat. And so I learned early on sort of the power of, I think we called it co-ompetition back in the day, which is where you’re like working alongside your competition because I think to some extent, things are a little different nowadays than WordPress than they were 15 years ago, but.

Sam Brockway: Mm-hmm.

Brian Gardner: You know, the whole rising tide lifts all boats. I still believe in that. And even on our build mode call on Friday, Chris Huffnagel commented, “Hey, I want you to succeed, and I want your product to help me build my product. And I want people to buy both products because what we’re trying to do is, you know, get adoption to the block editor and so on.” And so the mindset in the WordPress community of that, you know, working alongside one another. It’s mind-blowing because, in most cases, it’s, you know, sort of Lord of the Flies and, you know, talk to me about that even just, you know, with what you’re seeing now or what you saw back then—just the idea of working alongside folks and, you know, serving alongside folks.

Sam Brockway: Yeah, that’s great. I remember hearing this phrase and using it a lot, and like back before I even became the community manager at WP Engine, community over competition. There is plenty; I remember telling this to my mentees, the women I was working with who were starting their web design businesses. You know, technically, they were my competitors. Suppose I wanted to think about that. But I always said so many people out there need a website.

Hoarding will not mean I get every website project that ever comes about, right? So there’s only value in sharing knowledge, referral opportunities, and building that network. To add some more background here, I was not a big part of the WordPress community before I started at WP Engine.

A little before, when I joined Twitter, I was like, all these people talking about WordPress specifically on Twitter. That’s when I kind of like got my feet wet in the community, and I met some people like Adam Warner is another person that comes to mind from GoDaddy, who was someone that I reached out to and started talking with kind of early on when I started into like the WordPress Twitter space. But before that, I was more like a business owner. The biggest group I was a part of was called Boss Mom. It was moms running businesses online, and there was that feeling of community over competition. There’s always room for everyone, so becoming the community manager and being more active in the WordPress community was about giving and sharing information. Like you said, it wasn’t necessarily like, let’s commit code and give back that way, but giving back to others.

And make sure that everybody knows how to do what they want to do so we can all be successful. There’s room for everyone to have whatever level of success they’re looking for in the WordPress web development space. There will always be a supply of people who need our work. And that’s just how I feel about it. I see it very much from an abundance mindset, where there is so much opportunity—there’s almost too much opportunity sometimes.

Brian Gardner: Well, when the platform power was 50 % of the internet, there would be all facets of the types of websites. I remember that in the days of Genesis, that was the first tech community I was ever really a part of and built. One of the things I loved most about watching it develop was that so many developers, designers, and people who built websites on Genesis were so friendly with one another. They were so willing to help others in forums back in the day. Now we have Facebook groups, but, you know, somebody would go in, and there’s always someone better at you than what you do. And there’s always somebody who you’re better than. And so there’s always the give it, give it back and the pay it forward sort of mentality where I would watch and to sit there and watch so -and -so teach so -and -so how to do a thing to help them get their client. And then with no expectation in return.

You know, and then you hear the more significant stories where you’re talking to somebody at a WordCamp. Bill Erickson comes to mind as someone who’s just intelligent and really a good guy, but he was always willing to help others. Even if it meant, Hey, take this client because I don’t have time for it. When people experienced that mentality, the Genesis community was in its day. It was flourishing and healthy.

It was just so fun to watch and participate in. Yeah, thanks for the trip down memory lane.

Sam Brockway: There is also something inherent about WordPress being open source that makes it feel more collaborative by nature. I know that only some tech communities are like this. There’s something special about WordPress: When I was making my first blog in 2014, I watched a video or read a blog post from someone called Just a Girl and Her Blog.

She built her site with Genesis, and that was the first one for which I created a theme. But it’s just, you know, there was just a giving back of knowledge, and that was palpable versus, I don’t know, maybe some other communities are like that. Perhaps not, but there is something special about WordPress.

Brian Gardner: Yeah, I think you’re talking about Abby. I remember her from back in the day.

Sam Brockway: Yeah, Abby.

Brian Gardner: Going out of order with my questions is just the real talking because I don’t want to go on the list. I want to talk as we naturally do. So you mentioned Abby. I just mentioned Bill Erickson. You had talked about Adam Warner. And I had mentioned Cory Miller before that. So, let’s talk about some of the members of the WordPress community. At first, when I was writing the question, I was like, well, you don’t say you like them most. Who do you like the best? Who are your favorite members? That’s not how I want to think about something like this. Let’s talk about the people who inspire you. People who, whether it’s directly or indirectly, whether you witness their actions from afar, who are the people in the community that you see are just good, wholesome, legitimately there for the right reasons and just doing nothing but just good work?

Sam Brockway: That is a big question because so many people come to mind. I think the people that I feel most inspired by, I’ll say this more broadly, and then I’ll talk about specific people; I feel inspired by those who are trying different things and just willing to share what they learn as they go, whether it’s a fail or it is successful. They want to give you a full tutorial. There’s just everybody in between.

One thing I started doing on Twitter was playing with things in the block editor. As I learned some tricks and tips, one of them was the slash command. I was like, I’m just going to make a video and put it up there. And then, if this is helpful to anybody, they have it. Those people I value the most are generously sharing their knowledge as they go.

I don’t know if you’ve already alluded to this, but WordPress has changed dramatically since the beginning, and we’re all in this learning stage, testing things and sharing knowledge. So, one person who comes to mind is Rich Tabor. I love following his stuff. He does excellent breakdowns of new releases, things to look for, and different tricks and things he’s trying. Nick Diego is a former colleague at WP Engine. He works at Automattic, and I feel he is good at teaching concepts. I like watching his developer hours at wordpress.org.

Courtney Robertson from GoDaddy is another great person to follow, and she’s such a community player. Like she shares many job opportunities, she shares many things, highlighting others in the community. And, of course, she’s like the lead on the training team, if I’m not mistaken. So, she’s just so willing to share information and knowledge about WordPress. The last person I’ll say is Justin Tadlock. I think he’s a good person. We have our homesteading similarities. So I go, I go to him for WordPress and how to do things with strawberries and blueberries and things. So, he’s another good one to follow along with.

Brian Gardner: I respect all the people you mentioned for all the same reasons. And, you know, like I try to find, you know, cause it’s easy in tech or WordPress or on Twitter to sort of like hang, and we’ll call it the cool kids crowd or whatever. We interact with the people everybody knows and stuff like that. And there’s nothing wrong with that. And I catch myself doing that all the time.

But I get inspired by, you know, we have a thing called Build Mode every Friday. It’s a live interactive call where we talk candidly about WordPress with, you know, business owners and product developers of WordPress. And there are some people in there who, you know, I wouldn’t say they’re nameless because they have names, but people who aren’t as known, people who are doing the work and not talking about doing the work on the platforms where we interact with them.

So there are some people inside of Build Mode that I’m like, man, these are some brilliant people who are just heads down doing work with WordPress, giving back, stuff like that. One of my favorite people—I love her to death—is Carolina Nymark. She is, I believe, a Yoast-sponsored contributor. I finally met her for the first time this past year at WordCamp in Maryland, and I got to give her a big hug. I’m like, this is what it’s all about. These people in the community aren’t afraid to voice their opinions and do it diplomatically, not in a way that rubs people the wrong way. And they are probably just underappreciated for their efforts. She runs a site called fullsiteediting.com. I talk about that as often as I can because it’s probably outside of WordPress. It’s the source of truth and maybe even better than that at times. She has a tremendous heart for being in the community and trying to make a difference. Amber Hines with her accessibility stuff—I love the stuff that she does and how willing she is to help people, especially with accessibility. It’s one of those things where it shouldn’t be, but it is the marginalized aspect of web development.

Sam Brockway: Mm-hmm.

Brian Gardner: And so I think when she finds people with a pulse who are interested in accessibility, she jumps at the opportunity to work alongside them and to help move that forward. Those are a few people I can think of off the top of my head who inspire me and work without much expectation. So you walked us back into one of the questions I had here, which was around the change of WordPress over the years. Of course, in the early years, the first 10, 12, maybe 15 years, WordPress was just WordPress, which had its vibe then. And then this thing called Gutenberg happened, which maybe six years ago, Matt talked about that vision. Gutenberg was originally the editor, then became the exploratory plugin, so now we’ve got the block editor. And with that comes a ton of opinions within a community and platforms like Twitter slash X for people to vocalize their views around these things. I think there’s been, I wouldn’t say, polarization, but it’s almost like, maybe, for the first time, there was a reason for the WordPress community. It will say, divided even though it’s not that, but it sometimes feels like that. Talk to me about the current status of the WordPress community. Yeah, I guess that’s how I want to ask the question.

Sam Brockway: That is such an insightful and sticky call out. As you said, WordPress has been just WordPress for so long. If you watched a video with someone walking through how to do something in WordPress, it didn’t matter what theme or plugin you used. For the most part, you experienced the same thing when you were inside WordPress in the dashboard. And with the dawn of Gutenberg, page builders and things like that have changed the experience of WordPress, depending on how you have it configured. And in doing so, I think it has created not a rift in the community, but just more things to talk about almost because everybody has a different curated experience of WordPress. And if you’re brand new to WordPress, I think it even gets more confusing. And if you’re brand new to the WordPress community because

You’re saying I’m doing something with blocks, but all I see are these meta-box things and ACF. What is that? So there’s just like so much to talk about because there are so many, as I always say, so many different ways to WordPress, and everybody has an opinion. You should be able to build with WordPress however you want to, and there should be good resources for whatever configuration you have set up. There should be good resources if you want to do things with blocks. If you want to do things the classic way, there should be good resources. But some more vocal people in the community are a little bit more like, my way is the right way. And I don’t think there is one perfect way to do things in WordPress. I believe its power and beauty is that you can build however you want to, build whatever you want to in whatever way you want to. As developers or builders, we choose our WordPress flavor based on the project or how we like to work. And I think there’s been more negativity in the community because of those more dominant voices. But if we can embrace that spirit of many ways to WordPress, and you do it the way you want to, then we can continue to learn and dive deeper with each other. We can say, okay, I like to do things with blocks.

Let me learn everything I can from these folks doing it this way. I want to use a page builder, or I want to use the classic way with different fields and things like that. Let me learn from these particular people. It may divide up the community more, but we still all have the same love of WordPress. It’s just that we have different flavors that we prefer. What do you think, Brian? Do you feel like there’s an opportunity for the community to come together? Is there more division, but is that an okay thing? Like, what do you think about it all?

Brian Gardner: Well, I’m not going to justify that. The WordPress community resembles hip hop back in the 90s when there were East Coast and West Coast. I grew up in the 90s; I speak about this because I lived in both places. The reality is we’re all in the same gang, right? That was one of the songs that tried to bring people back together.

And even before that, back in the eighties, and Sam, this might predate you, and I don’t know if you’ve heard the original version of We Are the World, but that was a movement by musicians worldwide to help folks in Africa. And so I often go to YouTube, watch the video, and watch all of the people who were in that video, from Kenny Loggins to Michael Jackson to Bruce Springsteen to Al Juro, like all of these people who did music their way in different genres and whatever, but they came together. These are the two things I think about when it comes to WordPress. Yes, WordPress is one community at the very top level. It’s one piece of software we’re all using. Therefore, we’re all in the same community at that highest level. I agree that because of Gutenberg, there’s been sort of, again, we’ll call it a divide, but it presented an opportunity even ahead of the page builders that started that divide ahead of Gutenberg. Gutenberg just became, we’ll say, WordPress’s answer to the page builder. And so even before Gutenberg here’s a different way to do it. Because, you know, savvy people in the WordPress space found that opportunity and made lots of money because of a need. And I think to some extent, and I’ll try to say this diplomatically,

Many opinions come from people, opposing opinions, doubters, or naysayers around Gutenberg, Block Editor, and the future of WordPress. It might come less about whether or not the Block Editor is there and can do things. Still, more about, hey, my business is now at risk because of this. And I knew from the start that the page builders are, you know, friends with Robbie at Beaver Builder. Elementor and Divi knew once it became part of WordPress’s core, there would be an existential threat to their business because WordPress itself would compete against them. I don’t think there’s one person I feel is out of line, collectively, with how they’ve handled all of this. Yes. And I’ll call them out by name, like Kevin Geary. He probably has, and he’s the first to come to mind. Carl Hancock is another guy who is bold with his opinions and not afraid to voice them and challenge the status quo. But they both still do it respectfully, and in a way where I’m like, okay, like I get, we fundamentally disagree around this stuff. But obviously, there are opportunities to hear each other out and understand that you are right with what you’re saying. I agree with you. And I don’t think you or I, or anybody at least from WP Engine, ever said block editor is the right way to WordPress. It is the way we believe in it. I think it is the future of WordPress and has been for several years. And so I’ve continuously operated from that perspective, saying, hey, this is how it will be. I know it’s not perfect. It’s why I spend all day and all night inside of Local, with Gutenberg active and beta testing WordPress. Cause I’m trying to make it better for everybody to benefit from. And so, like, yeah, like, I wish it were a little further along that might be the takeaway in all of this because I want to align with the future way of WordPressing, for lack of a better phrase, but I still feel like it’s been relatively healthy.

And there’s more to say, and we could probably spend all day discussing this. But you mentioned a little while ago that you were talking about new people who were new to WordPress. Because WordPress has been around, we just celebrated its 20th anniversary, and I’ve been around for 18 years. And so there’s a lot of history around WordPress that people who are new to it have no idea about, and you know, ignorance is bliss, right? For those people, it’s like they’re better off than we are because they never knew life before the black editor. So they’re like, Hey, this is great. And I’m like, well, if you knew what it was 15 years ago, you wouldn’t, you know, your perspective would change. So, what is your advice for new people in the WordPress community? There are fewer users, but more around people who are building, designing, and developing and want to start small businesses.

I wonder if you’ll say one thing I’m thinking, but I’ll let you talk first before I throw my little something in there, a phrase I was thinking of as I was talking about that. What’s your advice for those people? How do you identify their niche in the community as a builder?

Sam Brockway: The first thing is to find a community, right? So when we say the WordPress community, there’s no one place. There are tons. There are things on Discord, Twitter, and Slack. There’s the WordPress.org contributor community. I think that that’s powerful, especially when you’re starting a business. You have mentioned this multiple times, which you said about Build Mode, the weekly call you host, and all about WordPress that we used to co-host. And now, with my new role, I no longer co-host it, but I hope to attend because this is such a powerhouse of people who use WordPress and are just builders, freelancers, and agency developers.

And they are doing the work with WordPress, and they have so much wisdom to share and great connections. Right. I mentioned this in the beginning. I wasn’t in the WordPress community when I had my freelance business, but I was in all these other communities of people looking for tech help, and they needed WordPress, build outs, and all sorts of things. It was a great way to be in different Facebook groups, and things like that were a great way to get to know others and build relationships with them. Business is relationships. That’s how you run a successful business: people buy from people. So, getting out there, getting to know people, asking questions, and not being afraid to say, hey, I don’t understand how to do this. Does anyone know how to do it? And you will be floored by how many responses you’ll get, especially in the WordPress space. So I think getting out there, though the beauty of the online space, is that it is so easy to raise your hand and join a community. I’m an introvert, so the idea of walking through a door and going to the small business things that towns host was never for me. So, having access to just everyone online was a much simpler ask for me. And if anyone else relates to that, online communities are fantastic. All right, Brian, what were you going to say?

Brian Gardner: And I don’t mean this, though. I mostly do. I would tell them to stay off Twitter. I mean, and I say that tongue-in-cheek, stay off Twitter. And that’s less about Twitter specifically and more about the idea of not letting some louder people in the room affect how they do their business. That’s really what I’m trying to say. And I joke by saying stay off Twitter, but because, as we know, that’s how you and I met.

Sam Brockway: You said to stay off Twitter? My goodness. Yeah. That’s fair.

Brian Gardner: Twitter and other social media platforms, such as LinkedIn, are helpful and an excellent breeding ground for community building. So, I don’t mean to stay off social media. I do say, you know, and to be curious, like I remember before I started working for WP Engine, I was working with Chris Huffnagel and Rafal and our friend Darrell in a little agency, and we had a little powwow where we got on and built each other up.

And I remember Darrell said this to me, and I know this to be accurate, but I didn’t embrace it until he said it and called it out. We were talking about things we love about each other. It was a good call. And he’s like, Brian, the thing I love about you most is that you’re curious. And at first, I was like, what does that even mean? But then I was like, he’s so right, right? Because I’m creative, and when it comes to WordPress and testing and building, I want to be on the front line, but to do that, you must be curious. You have to say, how does this work?

That’s how I figured out, you know, CSS and theme building back in 2006. It was the desire to want to learn. And the only way at that point was to Google it or start playing under the hood. And so, my two pieces of advice to new people were to stay off Twitter. But really, it is important to be curious, stay curious, and not let the loud people in the room discourage you from, you know, the path toward that discovery. In that process, you find your way; when you find your way, you find your people. And I’m literally about to cry by saying that. I am a huge fan of Walt Disney and Disney World. And I’m going to use this quote. It’s at the bottom of one of my theme demos. “You can design, create, and build the most wonderful place in the world, but it takes people to make the dream a reality.” And I feel that’s true. And, you know, people in the WordPress community can make fun of me for being all emotional, but I’m like, it’s so true. And every one of us is here because of other people. And that is the power of community.

Sam Brockway: 100%. That’s me; that was always my favorite thing about being a community manager. And even in my new role at WP Engine, people are the center of everything I do. As we talked about in the beginning, it’s that service back. The human side of running a business and building a website like this is tech. This isn’t supposed to be human, you know, centered, but it is.

It is. The people building with WordPress are human beings with lives and families. I asked this question multiple times on Twitter, and I love asking it because I love seeing the responses. What has WordPress opened up for you? What does the fact that WordPress exists allow you to do? And the reactions always make my heart so happy. I get to stay home with my family, live wherever I want to, travel, and take my kids places. I get to go on my kids’ field trips. That’s incredible, and that’s the kind of stuff that inspires me regarding WordPress. I can be inspired all day by lovely designs and cool sliders and carousels, but it’s the people who inspire me the most and the things they do with their lives because of WordPress.

Brian Gardner: Well, that is a great segue and ending to a conversation we will have very soon. And that will likely be the next episode here on the Press This podcast: Your product and service need a community. Like you’re an advocate of that. And you know, you come from the land of freelancers, and it intersects with your love and passion for people and community. And so we’re going to talk a little bit less about the WordPress community specifically and more about the importance and power from a marketing perspective, from a trust-building perspective of building a community around your product or service, and how that can help make you a successful WordPress business owner. So that being said, Sam, do you have any final words—sage advice, wisdom to people who are listening around, community or WordPress, and anything you want to say there?

Sam Brockway: I’ll reiterate: Get out there and meet people, try things, and as you learn, share. Be bold and share something you think is simple and easy because some people have yet to know what WordPress is and how to use it. They may stumble across something you’ve shared as a response in a forum, a Facebook group, or on Slack and be like, this is the answer I needed. So learn, share, absorb. Let’s keep making this knowledge house bigger and more prominent across all of us.

Brian Gardner: Here, here, I love it. On that note, we will see you all again on the next episode of Press This. As a reminder, Press This podcast delivers valuable insights and actionable tips for navigating the ever-evolving world of WordPress. Thank you so much for listening, and we’ll talk to you soon.