Fireside Chat with Matt Mullenweg and Matías Ventura: The Super Future of WordPress

As WordPress celebrates its historic 20th anniversary, what will the next 20 years hold for this powerhouse CMS? The pace of innovation is exhilarating, with exciting developments in the generative AI space and the growing power of Gutenberg for new projects and possibilities.

In this special session from DE{CODE} 2023, you’ll hear from WordPress Co-founder and Automattic CEO Matt Mullenweg along with Gutenberg Lead Architect Matías Ventura as they explore the trends and future of WordPress with WP Engine’s VP of Marketing, Monica Cravotta.

Check out the video below to find out how today’s technology will lay the foundation for the next 20 years of WordPress and beyond.

Video: Fireside Chat with Matt Mullenweg and Matías Ventura: The Super Future of WordPress


  • Monica Cravotta, WP Engine VP of Marketing
  • Matt Mullenweg, WordPress Co-founder and CEO of Automattic
  • Mathías Ventura, Gutenberg Lead Architect


MONICA CRAVOTTA: Hi, everyone. My name is Monica Cravotta, and it is my true honor today to host our fireside chat with WordPress Co-Founder and Automattic CEO Matt Mullenweg and Automattic Lead Architect for Gutenberg, Matías Ventura. We’re connecting virtually today, too. I’m in Austin, Texas, Matt’s in Houston, and Matías is in Madrid. It’s a true global connection.

You guys, on behalf of WP Engine, I just want to thank you so much for joining DE{CODE} 2023 to share your thoughts and your inspiration with the thousands of people who are gathered. Both of you are really so admired in the community. How about we start with a few questions that will help everyone get to know you a little bit? Are you guys down for that?


MATIAS VENTURA: Yes, of course.

MONICA CRAVOTTA: Great. So maybe we could start with what you may be reading or listening to right now that you’re getting some inspiration from or you’re enjoying?

MATT MULLENWEG: For me, I always love Krista Tippett’s “On Being” podcast. So that’s one of my favorites.


MATIAS VENTURA: I’m reading a Uruguayan poet, Uruguayan French poet from the 1900s, that kickstarted like the Surrealist movement and so on. It’s pretty incredible.

MONICA CRAVOTTA: Yeah, that sounds amazing. I love it. I love it. I don’t know if you guys have a favorite band from your youth, or maybe there’s something current that– if you had a fantasy concert that you could go to right now, who would it be? Matías? Do you have anyone in mind?

MATIAS VENTURA: I think from my youth, I would love to see Neil Young.

MONICA CRAVOTTA: Nice. That would be great. Matt, what about you?

MATT MULLENWEG: I think back to the saxophone players. So I did get to see Sonny Rollins live once, but someone who had maybe passed before I was born, like a John Coltrane, would have been amazing to see live.

MONICA CRAVOTTA: Amazing. I agree. I would love that too. I would love that too. OK, I know you all both enjoy photography, so if you could have a fantasy photojournalism retreat, what would it be? Where would you go?

MATT MULLENWEG: On my list right now, I really want to go to– two places I want to go in the world are Morocco– I’ve never been– and Jeju Island in South Korea. Both corners of the planet I haven’t made it to yet, and both seem really special and beautiful.

MONICA CRAVOTTA: Oh, my gosh. I’ve been to Marrakesh, and I can’t recommend it highly enough. It’s so phenomenal. Absolutely stunning. Matías, what about you?

MATIAS VENTURA: It’s a hard question for me. I don’t know. I can find inspiring and beauty almost everywhere. I don’t know. Maybe I would be somewhere in south of Argentina, like Ushuaia, that region. That speaks a lot to me. But I don’t know. Almost anywhere in the world, really.

MONICA CRAVOTTA: Oh, that’s so inspiring. It’s true. You can capture beauty anywhere. It’s all in the eye of the beholder. OK, so we’ve got a giant developer audience, so we have to ask the coding question. What was your first coding language?

MATT MULLENWEG: That I was serious in was probably Perl. And there was an O’Reilly book– what was that book called? I forget. It was the animal on it. They refer to it by the animal. The camel book, maybe? Yeah. So Perl was probably the first one I was serious about. Before that, I had done some Mac stuff on maybe HyperCard or other things, but it wasn’t serious.


MATIAS VENTURA: I think the one that comes to mind for me is ActionScript, like Flash, Macromedia Flash. Sometimes I think that’s how I started tinkering with it. I was doing animation stuff or films and so on, so that’s what picked my interest there.

MONICA CRAVOTTA: Great. So cool. Thank you guys. I love it. We’re close to celebrating 20 years of WordPress. So great that we can celebrate that together. Phenomenal transition from its genesis as a blogging platform to now. We’ve got a lot of people watching today who– it’s the scaffolding for some of the most sophisticated, complex websites in the world.

So I would love– Matt, maybe you could just talk about the magic and the drivers of this growth of WordPress that you’ve witnessed and what do you think is behind the magic?

MATT MULLENWEG: Sure. Gosh, I mean, the first thing, if we’re going to talk about why WordPress is what it is today, is at its foundation, its license. It’s our open-source license, which means that it has shared ownership from everyone in the world. You own WordPress just as much as I do.

So that’s really powerful, and that’s, I think, a good foundation on which everything else is built. Because we have the shared ownership, we’ve been able to bring together a community of people who like working on it, because it’s nice to work on something that you’re an owner of.

And so over the years, I think the story of WordPress is really a story of community, and that just from the very beginning with Mike Little and I, who had never met in person, collaborating across the Atlantic Ocean, growing to additional developers, additional contributors, the creation of plugins and themes– all of these were really thinking about that.

It’s not just the code, but it’s also the ecosystem around it. It’s the incentives. It’s the alignment. It’s the environments that we’re creating and I think that’s really something we strive to do in the WordPress community, is create a really positive, healthy environment for people to come together for a shared mission, so democratize publishing and have fun doing it.

MONICA CRAVOTTA: Hear, hear to community. It’s everything. What do you think is required for all of us who stand for a free and open web to keep things thriving for the next 20 years?

MATT MULLENWEG: Well, that’s a tough one. But I think you really need to go back to the principles of things.

So open source, in some ways, is like a moral framework that any of us can think about and say, well, in 20 years, would I want to live in a world where more of my software every day is closed, proprietary, and controlled by like a single person or company, or where it’s developed by community and belongs to me just as much as it belongs to anyone else? I want more of that latter, so that’s where I’ve chosen to put my professional years and intellectual output into.

And then also voting with your wallet. So when you support companies like a WP Engine, who don’t just provide a commercial service, but are also part of a wider open source community, you’re saying, hey, I want more of this in the world.

So when you give your dollars there versus Wix or Shopify, one of these proprietary things, it’s not just that you’re getting great software. You’re also getting that that software continues to be made, because so much of whatever you spend in the WordPress ecosystem gets reinvested back into the thing that, again, you own. So it’s like everyone’s a shareholder in WordPress, because we all have the fruits of the labor.

MONICA CRAVOTTA: I love that, Matt. It seems like it’s about consciousness of choice, because I think it’s so easy in this world that we live in now. It’s so fast-paced. And certainly, the nature of the web has created this new paradigm that we’re all living in, that you may inadvertently not be conscious of those– to your point, where your wallet goes. Are you choosing freedom? Are you choosing convenience? What’s the big picture for you and what you support?

MATT MULLENWEG: Well, I think on the other side, then, is the responsibility of developers like Matías and myself to then create the best user experience. Because people– whether they say they don’t want a drill, they want a hole in the wall, they’re trying to solve a problem and so even myself, who believes deeply in open source, I use an iPhone, which isn’t fully open source, because it’s the best phone out there right.

So if we want there to be more open source in the world, we need to make it the default and easy choice for just someone who actually doesn’t care at all about the philosophy. So we need to come together and build the very best software. So that’s what we go to sleep every night thinking about and wake up every morning thinking about.

MONICA CRAVOTTA: Right, right. That’s the battle cry for all of us Matías, I’d love your thoughts on this also. We’re starting out with the deep questions.

MATIAS VENTURA: Yeah. I think that, yeah, that confluence of both– again, the openness, the deep root that open source has, but also marrying that with a really, really good user experience.

I think that’s initially also what attracted me to WordPress. It was the idea that you could have both that expansive sense of– and the way I see it is learning from everyone. I remember– I think Matt, it was– I think I worked on reading in Buenos Aires or something and I remember reading a news article on the paper or something and you were comparing it to learning music. You have access to the world’s music everywhere to learn from it.

And that aspect, I think to me– it really resonates with me, the fact that– again, myself, when I started, I was learning from it. Everyone can learn from it and I think that, to me, is really important and if we can combine that with actually really good software, it’s really, really powerful.

MONICA CRAVOTTA: I agree with you. I agree with you. We’re all celebrating WordPress. 43% of the web– amazing and Matt, I know you’ve shared with others that you think it’s possible that we could get to 85%. I wonder if you might say more about that. What are your thoughts on that, and what would have to happen?

MATT MULLENWEG: Well, what would have to happen is, WordPress would need to remain super responsive to the needs of our community, our clients, our developers, our everything.

And if we continue to evolve and grow, and if we’re able to keep our pace of iteration really fast and create lots of opportunities for people, then I think that it could become a default part of the fabric of the web, much in the same way like Linux has for operating systems on the web or so many things we probably take for granted and when that happens, people might not even think of WordPress that much anymore. It’ll just be kind of default.

And there’s always going to be others. I think that’s actually great and healthy. But we want to make sure that WordPress is maybe like a good default that can just provide a base layer, so people don’t have to reinvent the wheel.

And I mentioned creating the opportunities. Neither Matías or myself had any formal background in doing what we do today, computer science or building things. I think that one of the special things about WordPress, and probably many of the people listening today, is that because it’s open, we don’t charge to learn it, to use it.

And when you learn these skills, it’s very commercially valuable, because now all of a sudden, you can be a WordPress ambassador or translator for many, many other people who want to sell more muffins or bring more people to the restaurant or maybe just blog and share their writings online. So it’s a very marketable and commercial skill. So that ecosystem is also something that we want to continue building.

And yeah, I always want there to be lots of demand for WordPress, people building WordPress, and lots of supply of people learning how to do more WordPress.

MONICA CRAVOTTA: Yeah, it is a really beautiful way to make a living. I know there’s so many people tuned in today that are in any pocket of the world and building websites, designing themes, plug-ins, and can do it from anywhere and so much freedom of expression and freedom to play and to innovate, and to your point, leverage the foundation that could then be pulled through in any number of ways. So yeah, I love it. Hear, hear to 85. Let’s do it. Let’s do it.

So there was a statement made famous. 2022, not too long ago, State of the Word. Gutenberg will be bigger than WordPress. Matt, what did you mean by that.

MATT MULLENWEG: Actually, I know I said it, but I kind of want Matías to talk about this, if you’re all right.

MONICA CRAVOTTA: OK. How does it land for you? What does it mean for you?

MATIAS VENTURA: I don’t know. I think it’s a really interesting frame to think about what we’re doing. Because it both, I think, broadens the horizon and that really gives us and the team and everyone working on it the perspective to see a bit further ahead of where we might be.

It’s also, again, intentionally a big responsibility. WordPress is really huge and what does it mean that we also have an opportunity here to shape other software outside of WordPress by bringing some of the ideas of WordPress? Because I don’t see just Gutenberg, the tool itself, but are we embedding other ideas from WordPress itself into it, like the way that we approach software, the way we approach user experience, the way we approach sharing things?

And then yes, you have the obvious things that we’re seeing. A lot of projects like take advantage of Gutenberg without necessarily having to depend or use WordPress. I’ve seen a few projects where people were using WordPress just for the editing experience, but publishing somewhere else. There’s a lot of combinations. I think that gives us a lot of flexibility to pursue just better user experiences across– distribute better user experiences across the web.

MATT MULLENWEG: Yeah. If you think of our mission to democratize publishing, our mission is not to get everyone to use WordPress. We want to increase freedom and agency and access for people all over the world and so with Gutenberg now, that editor can be embedded in other applications.

And we’re trying to introduce a common user interface and technical framework for what I would call the primitives of building the web, the basic building blocks. Just like there is a periodic table of elements, and everything you look around and see in your room or your body or the world is made from those elements, there’s a set of blocks and putting them together in different ways, you can build literally anything you can imagine, just like the elements.

And so no one product can own that. And if we do it right, I would love for even Wix or Squarespace to use Gutenberg in the future, because that means that when their developers improve something like the image block, that could be shared back to everyone else and then most importantly, when someone learns how to use one of these blocks because they learned WordPress or something like that, they’ll now be able to use that interface everywhere else on the web that Gutenberg is used.

So that’s why we actually have done the work to make Gutenberg an even more– it’s called permissive license, or open license, I would say permissive license– than WordPress itself is under. So WordPress says, the GPL says, use it, modify it, and you have to share your modifications. That way, it kind of gets better all the time. But it can be a little tricky to embed inside a commercial app, which is not open source.

With Gutenberg, we’ve tried to say that, hey, if you want to embed this even in something that’s not open source the whole thing isn’t open source, that’s OK.


MATT MULLENWEG: Part of why we’re aiming to build something, again, for humanity, for the web, not just for the WordPress community. We’re going to be the first, the best user of Gutenberg. But I love seeing it being adopted by other applications and if anyone listening to this is building something that has nothing to do with WordPress, but it has a text editor– really, look at Gutenberg. You should probably be using it.

MATIAS VENTURA: And one of the cool things as well is that I think initially, we’re going to see the adoption through the text editor. But it’s also now getting to be a really interesting design tool. So what can how can that shape into other projects, that maybe they are not really strictly a text editor, but they are more around design tools?

They have seen, I think, a strong renaissance over the last several years, especially web-based design tools, like obviously Figma, but there’s many others and they’re really interesting to see what people can take from those primitives that are not just now about text writing, but also about designing websites and what they can do with it.

MONICA CRAVOTTA: There’s so much freedom and flexibility when you can get to that componentized approach and I love the vision that you just laid out. That’s super cool. Super cool. Matías, there’s so many elements of full-site editing. Is there one that you think has really moved Gutenberg forward faster than others?

MATIAS VENTURA: I think to me, it would have to be patterns. I think that’s one of the new things that we introduced that sort of emerged naturally. There’s an obvious need for something like this.

But I think it’s sitting in a place that I find really interesting, because it’s a confluence of blocks, but it’s also what’s allowing us to distribute the signed primitives that are not as granular. They are a bit more all-encompassing, where you can distribute the sign for a header, or the sign for a hero section or whatever.

I think it’s a very interesting place to also look from the perspective of AI. More than like blogs themselves, I think how you put them together– that opens so many possibilities for exploring tools, exploring ways. In the directory, we have hundreds of patterns and it eventually becomes hard to discover them and put them together and so on. So there’s I think there’s a lot of– yeah, it’s just a new breed of opportunities coming up around patterns.

Even, WP Engine has also been exploring a lot of really cool tools with the pattern builder and so on. I think there’s a lot of interest in the community as well to see where this leads. I think we haven’t written all the chapters about patterns yet and that, to me, is very exciting.

MONICA CRAVOTTA: So cool. Yeah, AI is just so exciting, ChatGPT and– my profession is like, it’s an existential moment as a content person in this lifetime. But yeah, Matt, say more about your thoughts on the wave of AI innovation currently and just anything that you feel like sharing on that front in terms of where we go with WordPress in connection to it.

MATT MULLENWEG: Yeah, I’m reminded a lot of– there’s a famous Steve Jobs passage– I want to address this, so look it up– where he talks about different forms of input of energy to motion.

There’s some animals that are obviously faster than humans, like jaguars or things that can move faster. But actually, the most efficient thing that we’re aware of for converting energy to motion is a human on a bicycle. So just that energy-to-motion ratio is more efficient than anything that nature itself–


MATT MULLENWEG: –designed or evolved, which is kind of amazing.


MATT MULLENWEG: And so he then called computers a bicycle for the minds, in that it can convert the energy of your mind, the creativity, and it can augment it.

And what I’m seeing with AI is hopefully what I think is grist for the mill or inspiration for people who are creative and making original work to find a starting place. We all know how tough it is to look at a blank page or something like that and so having AI be kind of like your copilot or assistant that’s giving you lots of ideas, or maybe you ask it to do something, it generates five or 20 of them, and then you pick the best one and then iterate from there– think of it like that.

So a lot of times when people try out these tools– which, by the way, everyone listening to this should– they go, and they give it one prompt, and they’re like, oh, that wasn’t that good. But that’s not how you’re supposed to use it. That would be like making one brush with your page stroke. I mean like, oh, the painting is not done.

Think of it as part of your creative or generative process, whether that’s coding, writing, whatever it is that you’re creating and giving to the world. Go back and forth with the AI, just might like you might go back and forth with a colleague, it’s a colleague that’s available 24/7 and always there.

If you’re just copy and pasting things out of ChatGPT, that’s probably not going to be that valuable, or Google is going to penalize that in the future, or things like that. But if you’re using it as part of creating something brand-new and inspiring you to ever higher heights, then I think that’s where you’re going to find the most value.

MONICA CRAVOTTA: Yeah, I agree. It’s like a brainstorm accelerator and access to this massive brain and then you can still infuse the absolutely necessary human creativity. But it’s true. Editing is easier than writing from a blank slate and so why not? Why not? Very, very cool.

So I’m going to shift a little bit, you guys. Let’s talk accessibility. So we know there’s this challenge to address multilingual, big world that we live in, and enabling disabilities. Can you share some thoughts, Matías, on Gutenberg, roadmap, and what’s the vision there?

MATIAS VENTURA: Yeah. It’s an ongoing, very, I think, both rewarding and difficult path. Because one thing we started realizing pretty soon with the editor is just the breadth of experiences that people have or that people find adequate for themselves, even trivial things, like we have this setting on the top toolbar and once we started user testing, it comes to– the preferences are pretty split between what is better and what is worse.

And so I think that has brought a perspective into how we approach accessibility that I think is contemplating the idea more that there is not a one size fits all, and that we can start really expanding and investing into, what are the solutions that we can do? How can we create, I don’t know, the best experience for people that are only interacting with the keyboard in a certain way? How can we create the best experience for people that just want everything out of the way, because any sort of visual noise just becomes a cognitive burden to them?

And again, it’s hard to say everyone should have the same experience there. So how can we shape things in a way that accommodates everyone? I think we have a lot of room there, as an open source project, to really show, how can we really cater to as many people as possible?

And multilingual, to me, is also an interesting one. Again, you could say– even from the perspective of, if you have a site where you only write in a single language, and you put all of this burden into it, it’s like, OK, this might be too much for that person. But someone that is unable to express, and they speak two languages, and they really want to do that– it becomes a limitation.

So it’s really about recognizing that the more we want to get to 85%, we’re talking about essentially every possible human experience, accommodating it somehow and that, to me, personally just is incredibly challenging and rewarding just to pursue.

MONICA CRAVOTTA: A worthy challenge. Yeah. I can get that it’s really, really hard. Matt, did you want to add anything?

MATT MULLENWEG: No, that was great.

MONICA CRAVOTTA: Yeah. Thank you for that, Matías.

So Jason Cohen shared in his session today that he really felt like the introduction of Gutenberg has given so much more power to the site owner and the marketer, which of course, as a marketer, I love personally and I wondered if you might just explore that sentiment that Jason shared.

MATT MULLENWEG: Yeah. Often when we’re being grandiose, we think of our task as Prometheus. Prometheus took the fire from the gods and brought it to the people. What are things that before you might have had to spend thousands or tens of thousands to do, or be an expert in the software, that we can make easy, that we can automate, that we can make just a few clicks? Then the experts will figure out something new. That’s just how human progress and technological progress works.

But then putting the creative tools in the hands of many is obviously very, very, very exciting and part of what I have loved to see is just the vast– now that Gutenberg is out there, and patterns in particular, people are making websites that are a lot more unique, I feel reflect themselves a lot more.

And so when you put these tools in the hands of people, I think we get to enjoy more of the range of human diversity and expression, versus all websites looking a little bit the same, which we got in there for like five or ten years, actually. There was a period of design on the web. But you can kind of tell, it’s one aesthetic or one school of design and I just really want to see a variety out there, just like in art.

MATIAS VENTURA: And that’s really interesting as well, because I remember that was one of our concerns as well. It was like, now that we have blocks, are all things going to look blocky? And it’s been really nice to see that hasn’t been the case. People are really taking.

And to me, that has really opened up like a whole new audience to WordPress as well. Probably around– I don’t know, mid last year, when we started seeing designers just use the tool, design the thing entirely themselves, that to me was really eye opening, because I got started with WordPress doing themes and it required you to both learn code, learn design, and do a mixture. That was probably leaving a lot of people outside. We go back to the topics of accessibility, how to really expand.

And now we’re seeing like designers that haven’t touched code at all be able to contribute and express and share with the world their creations. That, to me, was really nice to see and then the result of that is also more expression, and not that things look the same. It’s really wonderful.

MATT MULLENWEG: I have to put a plug here for people to Google later. Look up the Museum of Block Art. There’s an online museum that’s been created around showing art and interesting things people can do with blocks. So if you’re ever feeling in a creative rut, it’s kind of cool to see what people are able to put together with blocks.

MONICA CRAVOTTA: That is a great tip. I’m totally going to do that. Thank you. Awesome. Well, think about Wix and Squarespace and some folks moving into this world of building a site in a day. Do you feel like that is the ease of where block editing is going?

MATT MULLENWEG: Yeah, absolutely. But that’s just the first step, as we all know, especially yourself as a marketer.


MATT MULLENWEG: Building this site is– you can’t just build it, and they will come. That’s just creating the environment, which then is going to be something that you nurture and grow like a garden over months and years through continued intention. And those are the websites that are going to stand out to people over time and that’s really where WordPress shines.

Some of these other things are really great at making a website super quickly, or a one-page website, or LinkedIn bio, or whatever. But then six months later–

MONICA CRAVOTTA: No room for iteration. Right. I mean, I can vouch that we have the team here. It’s our job. We’re redesigning the right now. And it’s not going to be one and done when we launch. OK, what are we doing in Q2? OK, what are we going to do at the end of the summer? and it’s a never-ending thing.

And as marketers, we want to be nimble and we love our Devies and we also want some of that autonomy of expression to move fast and tell our stories. So cool. I agree. WordPress enables that, which is awesome.

Well, guys, it’s been an amazing session with you. I just so enjoy it. I think maybe a great question to close, as we’re celebrating 20 years of WordPress– maybe each of you could share, if you had a crystal ball, predictions for WordPress in the next decade.

MATT MULLENWEG: Matías, why don’t you kick it off?

MATIAS VENTURA: It’s tough to jump so much ahead. I try to think again– if you go back 20 years, and if I would have imagined the next 20 years, I would probably have fallen short. So whatever I say, I think that the one truth is that it’s going to fall short from where WordPress is going to be at in 20 years.

I think some things will remain true, though. What I really want to see is that expansion of catering to all the facets of human creativity and expression. All the tools that are appearing, like AI, all of this– how can we combine that and keep giving back to people so that they can express things?

And it can be like trivial things from– again, we talk about LinkedIn bio and with WordPress, you can have a LinkedIn bio, but you can also add more pages, and you can have more things around the whole experience and how that expands into whatever we might be doing in 10, 15, 20 years. I think WordPress has to be deeply rooted to that human experience and I think we’ll be flying with wherever things take us as humans.

MONICA CRAVOTTA: Cool. Thank you.

MATT MULLENWEG: I’m always drawn to that– I think it was originally Dennis Gabor who originally said this, which is, you can’t predict the future, but you can invent it.

And so what’s neat about Matías, myself, everyone listening today is, you can create the future that you want to be in and so what I’m going to be working on is more open-source software, a web that’s more open and connected, open APIs, putting more control back in the hands of the people, basically, so that we have choices.

We’re served by companies, not serving companies. So they can create things, and we can choose to use them and we also have a choice to maybe use something else and that, I think, keeps them honest, creates more freedom in the world and that is something that– I can imagine everything in WordPress changing. That’s not going to change. So that’s what we do these things in 20 years from now.

MONICA CRAVOTTA: I love it, you guys. Love it. Do you have a closing battle cry for Team Open? How can everyone that’s Team Open here today contribute to–

MATT MULLENWEG: What I always return to is– well, one, developing empathy. So when you can really understand your client, your customer, everything, that’s where great design and great products and great software comes from and then the second is just remembering– I mean, look around you, wherever you are today. Everything at one point was an idea in someone’s head and was created probably not by a person, but by a team actually working together.

And so feel an agency that is something that you could imagine being better in the WordPress world or anywhere, really, that you can do that. There’s not anything special about the person who made your computer or your desk or your phone or anything that’s different from the same things you were born with. So really don’t limit your ambition in effecting change in the world, if you have a passion for it.

MONICA CRAVOTTA: I love it. I love it. You guys, I think we’re at time. Thank you again so much. It’s been fabulous to meet you virtually. I hope to meet you in person someday. Thank you again, and I know everyone here is going to really appreciate the opportunity to engage with you.

Everyone who’s tuned in today, thank you so much for your time and for joining DE{CODE} in this amazing session with Matt Mullenweg and Mathías Ventura. It’s been our pleasure to host, and thank you again for being here. Have a great day.

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